Interview with Lubna

Jimmy Fennessy: This is Jimmy Fennessy interviewing Mrs. Lubna Ibrahim on December 2, 2018 for Denison University Oral History Digital Collection Project on Arab Americans in Central Ohio. Lubna Ibrahim is going to talk about life in the United States as an Arab American. I'd like to thank you again, thank you for interviewing with us, we really deeply appreciate it.

Lubna: You're welcome!

JF: To begin, I guess, maybe you could talk with us about your early life, being born in Sudan and maybe a favorite childhood memory.

LI: I was born in Sudan. I studied in Sudan until I finished my college, and then I moved here and got married. I got married and moved here; that was 19 years ago. And so my early childhood and early years in Sudan were full of fun 00:01:00memories. I enjoyed every part of it. So we have big families. The typical way of life there is to have big families there. The houses are big with extended family there, living in different quarters of the same house. The childhood memories are usually, what is dear to my heart is the long hours and days with cousins. So, it would be like 15 kids at all times [laughs] like the whole neighborhood, but it's that's how you would spend every afternoon after coming from school, just enjoying and playing outdoors. So these are rather typical things. Then I got into the University of Khartoum, which is the Khartoum is the 00:02:00capital, and this is the most original and first university in the Sudan and its the biggest if you choose to take the biggest number of students including all the professions that are current. And so I started there and graduated and then I worked; like I volunteered for one year and worked for like 3 years before I traveled to the US. So that's about it, that's about my years there [laughs]. Lots of family memories, lots of warmth remembering all the family. It was full 00:03:00of life and friends and family members.

JF: What did you specialize in at university?

LI: At the university? I studied agricultural economics.

JF: Wow

LI: Yeah, that was my specialty. At that time it was, it was like a line of study that involves many sciences. So first they give you, the first year is all the sciences like they do here for the general admission. And then you get exposed to, as you go along, it is a five year honors program. As you go into the program you get into the specialty lines more and more. But, what was nice about it is that it exposes you to a very wide range of sciences before specializing in the agricultural economics part of it.

JF: And then did you work in that field for the 3 years?

LI: Partly because it's very related to development planning and that's the field I worked at, so it was. I worked with an international non-profit organization that was operating in Sudan at that time. It had headquarters here in the US, and what they do is that they design projects for developing countries, third world countries, and some of the projects were agricultural in nature and some were not. So we had projects. I was involved in 2 agriculture projects and 2 medical. It's health and extension information, like public health projects for women and children. So these are the lines of, they are 00:05:00typical non-profit organizations, they bring funds, donations from big donors like, it's very similar to what the UN does, United Nations. And then they fund these projects in third world countries and have annual reports to the donors and that's the type of work. I enjoyed it to the maximum. It was very satisfying and I got involved into the details of those projects from the beginning; you get to be part of the design team, the data collection, and you have to impress the donors with your proposal, and then you get the funds and start and then monthly, and quarterly, and annually reports back to them; and that's the type of work we did.

JF: It's very cool.

LI: Yeah, I enjoyed it. [laughs]

Hannah Bennett: May I ask a question? What first interested you in this field? 00:06:00How did you decide I would like to go learn more about agriculture and the economic side of things?

LI: First of all, when I first got into that field?

HB: Yes.

LI: It's more of like, to be honest, you know how here you get into the science field all together. like at OSU they get you into the 4-year prep program and then from there you get aligned to whichever line you're into? So they get you on the first year on general sciences and then you go to the specifics. And back at home was the scarce resources and very limited seats at the universities. It is sometimes, part of it was that in my case, what seats were available to get 00:07:00into. It's not like the freedom that you have here because of the availability of all the fields that you can change your field or just get into whichever line that you're really interested in. So at that young age I wasn't really into the agricultural economics part of it, it was the seats that were available, but the study itself was very rich and I enjoyed it because it exposes you to a wide range, as I said before, of sciences. So we would take biochemistry, we would take botany, we would take at the same time horticulture on the agricultural side, crop production, crop protection, so it's very wide, and then you will get into the economics. When I got into it, I got interested in the economics part of it and that's why in the last year when you specialize, I got into that. But 00:08:00the development planning part after I graduated. That was something of my choice. That I wanted that line of studying projects and seeing how development planning and development projects, sustainable development, could really change communities, could really affect poor societies.

JF: So did your professional career bring you to the United States?

LI: Nope [laughs] sadly! It was because I got married and my husband was already here. He was studying at OSU and so I joined him. So it wasn't my profession that brought me. There was that option but I didn't pursue it because the headquarters of the organization was here in Atlanta, and that was a thought at some point in time that I would come and join them, but that never happened 00:09:00because he was at OSU and we just continued living here.

JF: So that's how you came to Columbus then?

LI: Yes.

JF: How did you meet your husband? If you don't mind me asking.

LI: No problem [laughs]. We were at the same college, the same university, University of Khartoum, in Sudan. We were in the same, actually, field, also.

He studied agriculture but he specialized in biochemistry.

JF: Wow.

LI: So when he came here, he pursued pharmacy.

JF: For a master's degree or?

LI: Graduate.

JF: Graduate, Ok. So, like, you got married

Adam Venrick: I actually have a question now, if you don't mind me asking.

LI: Sure, go ahead. [Smiles]

AV: Do you find yourself using your degree here for your work? You said you were a principal, yes? Do you find that your degree plays into that?

LI: Hm, well, a basic B.S. degree, a Bachelors of Science, you would need it in any profession you are working, but the specifics of it are not related to the school work, but to the, I find a lot of times it's related to my volunteer work because I volunteer in the same institution, which is the Noor Islamic Cultural Center. So basically, it's a cultural center and the projects and the programs are still, although have a religious nature, it's reaching out the community, improving the community, trying to improve the lives of it. So that's where the crossing of the lines comes with my degree. Many times, when we're designing something, a new project, I feel the similarities because it's essentially the same type of underlying like main principles or main cause that you are working towards.

JF: Could you talk about some of the outreach you do, like through working with the Noor Islamic Center?

LI: We have a big outreach department that I'm part of but [laughs] some of the other members are doing huge steps and big work. I'm just a tiny [laughs] 00:10:00little, I have tiny additions to that. But we do. Mainly, what the outreach department is concerned for is building bridges and relationships with the local community. With the local community and mainly in Hilliard and Dublin communities. It is because we are located in Dublin and the Columbus community at large. So, we're reaching out to schools-- churches, synagogues, and having a lot of events throughout the year. Apart from building the bridges and having social and personal relationships with these entities, having the ability to 00:11:00explain to them or to present our culture, our religion in a way that's how we see it and how it should be presented, and that's something very important, I think, in the current age and time; to be able to see the different facets of how many communities can explain Islam, and that's the big thing of what we're doing.

JF: Can you talk about some of the challenges that you've encountered doing that, like expressing your culture and religion?

LI: For the outreach, I would say, because as I'm telling you it's just events, and the challenges of those would be more geared towards people who are really on the design team for those programs. I just joined in the, like giving tours of the center, giving talks when we have open dialogues with. Like we have Islam 00:12:00101 every Saturday which invites, and I think Dr. Al-Masri has invited some students before throughout the years to these talks. It's like a one hour talk informing the students, usually from the universities around Ohio, about what Islam is all about and all that just in a nutshell, the basic information about it. So regarding the challenges, I'd probably be more comfortable having them talk about that. But at the same time, I'm involved, as I told you, in the school. It's a weekend school and I've been a board member for four years. Now I'm just part of the executive committee. On running of the volunteer work, it's just the center that's run by a number of volunteers and doing really important 00:13:00work, as I said, mainly having our children of the Muslim community in Columbus relate to their roots and at the same time being good citizens and being a true part of their communities wherever they are and just that type of work, that's what I'm involved in.

JF: You mentioned how making sure people, or the youth I guess, are in touch with their roots and their cultural history. In the other interviews, it's been striking that can be challenging sometimes in America, to get people to relate. I guess my question is, for your kids, how do you make sure that they know what it means to be Sudanese and what it means to be a Muslim while living in America?

LI: Well, it's something that you instill in them at a very young age and that's what I've been doing. And so it's something that you can't just keep talking about it. It's not something that you tell them: "you have to be proud that you're Sudanese." That sentence does not mean anything. It's just a sentence, empty words. But you have to relate it to something that they love. I take them to visit there whenever I can and we still have extended family back in Sudan. They enjoy it and then you expose them to the real culture there. They see their roots, they see their uncles, their aunts, their grandpa, all those people and they get to talk to them, to have a relationship with them. And so, this way, 00:15:00the way I think about it is that, I see them here and that they are enriched, and they have something more than others, rather than being different than others. So, and that's my personal way of viewing it, if you have them growing up thinking that they're a little bit blessed with having something more, so they appreciate it because I tell them like, most of their neighbors when they visit their grandpa in just another state here, but you have to go 14 hours across the Atlantic; and see how far and how deep you have roots in Africa and so you make it a little bit exciting for them; and it does, they do. The truth is, as they say Alhamdulillah in al Arabi, I haven't encountered, up until now, 00:16:00any kind of struggle for them. I see them proud of their identity and able to project it or present it proudly always. And there's not conflict, as I see it, between that and their American identity because it's what you want it to be. Some other people, some people have different views; you take the best from where you are living, I can take the best. There are some practices and something in our culture in Sudan that I do not like at all, so I leave those; and there are some practices and some things in the American culture that I do not like and I leave those. So they have the best of both worlds and they can 00:17:00just live with both in a very equilibrium status.

JF: Do you speak Arabic with them?

LI: Yes. They do speak Arabic, Alhamdulillah, I was keen, except my youngest, he does speak Arabic but he is, I would say, the weakest in Arabic because they speak to each other in English more, so he's at a disadvantage there. But for all of them, they do speak Arabic. They go to the school I'm telling you about too, so they do also write the language. They know it and speak it.

JF: You speak Sudanese dialect in the home and then Fusha in the class, correct?

LI: [nods] Yes. Yeah, the Sudanese dialect is always at home. Although, 00:18:00sometimes also because you're just living here you find that you're switching to English a lot of times. But we make an effort to speak in the home Arabic so that they can keep it.

JF: In the first part of the interview, we talked a lot about your cultural experiences. But during the break, you talked a little bit about the political struggles that happened in Sudan. You've gone back intermittently throughout the years, but what has your experience been watching the political issues and the civil war happening in your country from America? Is it difficult? How does it feel?

LI: It's very sad, it's a very sad feeling. I've been throughout the years I've been visiting because I have extended family there. Actually, my dad was there until he died Allah Yarhamu [May his soul rest in peace]. So, I've been going back, but it's very sad every time I go, the deterioration I see and it's all because of the political situation. It's just like a vicious circle that start good and then everything gets down. from when there's corruption and when the political system is corrupt everything falls apart. It's just a domino effect, everything goes down. It's just a sad feeling to see that every time I go. Especially that we have been, as I have explained, one of the strongest real democracies in Africa. And so, the democracy was overthrown and that's what the 00:20:00country is still suffering from. So, we're just hoping for the future. That everything, like from our experiences and the experiences of all peoples and other nations, it ends. Like we're full of hope that these difficult times end. Although there was the civil war and there was the split into two countries that was the result of a long civil war, it's not, it happened long before the current government was there. But it was escalated and some of the results of the escalation was the split after like a poll, a nationwide poll in the South, and that was the choice of the people. But all that like, we still have hopes 00:21:00that one day it will end because historically that these difficult times end at one point in time; that's what we're hoping for: a new era, new changes, if they'll improve, you never know what the future brings. But the deterioration is mainly because of the overflow of the democracy that was there. Since it was, we had parliament, we had parties, we had free press, we had all that at some point in time.

JF: What year was the democracy overthrown?

LI: 1989.

JF: Okay. And which year did you come to the United States?

LI: [dialogue between Lubna and one of her children: what year were you born?2002?]: Maybe 1998 or '99. So, I lived there after there, if that's your 00:22:00question, I lived there. I don't know exactly how many years, but a few years before I came here during that. So like first, it's the shock that everything is different [giggles] just a coup in the morning and nobody goes out for like 48 hours of a curfew. And then everything starts to change. But at the same time, the democracy that was there was not long lived either, so it wasn't like for twenty years. When really, the unions and everything that would make sure that this doesn't happen, weren't strong enough, it was only a few years since earlier dictatorship was there too. So, it's a revolving pattern, I guess, since 1964. Sudan got its independence in 1956, prior to that it was a British colony, 00:23:00and then from 1956 onwards it's been this turnover between democracies then, so two very big uprisings, one in 1964 and then again in 1986 which were the uprisings of the people. Something similar to the Arab Spring that happened recently in some Arab nations. That people would take to the streets real revolutions and then democracies put in place; but again before all the institutions are strong enough to protect it, it gets overthrown again by the military.

JF: Is there a perception that that's the result of the British colonial legacy, would you say?

LI: Some people think so because, some people think so. But, you can't blame it 00:24:00all on that. it's certainly a big part of everything because we had to struggle at some point as a people just to get our freedom, just to be free and to have independence. And so, that's part of it. The whole country, I think, united at those times against the foreigner, against the enemy who was colonizing the country. And there are some of the seeds for the problems were put at that early stage, but not all. I would say because there are, in all fairness the way I see it, there are some positive things that they did. Although nobody would be for 00:25:00colonization or anything, but then there are the things that were done like big projects developing the countries that they were colonizing. It wasn't like they left it as a desert. They were educating the people, they put the first foundations for universities, for public work, for all that. So, I cannot blame it all on them. After the independence, you just blame it on the people themselves and the ignorance in not protecting their democracies.

JF: Through your knowledge and experiences in this, does that affect how you perceive democracy in America?

LI: It does [laughs]. It does, of course. Because like you see here and there the differences and what ultimately it is supposed to be and any system up until 00:26:00now, there's no perfect system or political system that has been created by man. But at the same time, what's happening here is the closest to perfection that you would find on earth, which is good and it's protected by the people themselves, by many of the laws. But my perception of how it is, is definitely affected by my past experiences and where I come from originally and what's happening in my country. And you see differences, you see like what benefits the freedom can give you like just the simple open talk and discussions that you cannot have any more back in all these countries, gives you a very, a real 00:27:00appreciation of what we have here. Some of the basic discussions you cannot have there without looking over your shoulders "Is this group okay?" so that I can really talk freely or not, and that's the reality of it. That's the reality in many of the African countries, Sudan being one of them.

JF: Do you find that people in American are aware of the issues facing Sudan or the political?

LI: Not really. From my experience its that, other countries for some reasons are so well-exposed, especially the Sudanese people back in Sudan, are very well-informed and exposed to what's going on around the world and very interested in the news of everywhere else. For some reason, you'd find the 00:28:00average person in cross-section in Sudan, educated, the average educated person, very aware of that. While here, sometimes I think it's because that's how huge the US is, I think about it sometimes as a continent not a country. That people are just always interested in the US and very rarely you'll find them, except if their profession is something close to the developments that in other countries you'll find them interested but world affairs and world news, especially in Africa, are not part of the general information on a regular basis.

JF: Would you like to see more --?

LI: Yes, of course. Of course I would like to see more of that because that makes you, makes the people here, much more informed and it's the whole world is 00:29:00moving more and more to become one village. So, the political decisions that are ultimately taken, that are taken here, the people here they're affecting us and our families and our extended families back in our homes. And these decisions are being taken by the minority, the petitions who are involved and that while the vast majority of the people have no clue about anything going on there. So, if they were informed and involved there would be much better decisions regarding the political decisions from the US regarding those countries in Africa and the Middle East, everything. So, the more information the more awareness there is, the more exposure the American people have to outside cultures, to other ways of living, the more that would lead into peace.

LI: ...towards those countries.

JF: This is a broad question, building off of that. If you had to tell someone in America, if someone asked you about Sudan, what would you want them to know about Sudan?

LI: I'd want them to know about the Sudanese personality, the Sudanese person, that's our treasure, I think. So, the way we think, and you'll find many Sudanese people will join me in thinking that. The biggest thing is that the Sudanese personality, which is a very unique and peculiar combination in its 00:31:00cultural background, cultural identity, and actually the roots of that personality; very generous person in particular, very open, we like guests and we like to have guests a lot and that's part of our inherent culture. Like to be Sudanese means you love to have guests and to have foreigners, to interact with other cultures, for some reason that's not just a part of daily life, it's a part of your culture. That's how you should act otherwise everyone will be very: "What's wrong with them?" [laughs]. And the real combination and interaction between two cultures in a very nice way, which is the African, the very African 00:32:00part of it and on the other side the very Arab part of the Sudanese personality. These two sides mix in a very unique way in the Sudanese personality because we have Christians in Sudan but the wide majority is Muslims. So, the Arab part of the culture is very much affected and influenced by the Islamic culture as a religion. So, all that have mixed and the main reason is that Sudan is in Africa, very African country, but there was a large migration of Arab tribes long ago who settled there and then that was the mixture. The ending result is this very fascinating combination of cultures, and you'd find if you meet an 00:33:00average Sudanese person, he relates very much to his African roots and at the same time his main language is Arabic and he speaks Arabic and relates to the culture, not only like the religion which is something completely different. But relates to the arts, the poetry, just all sorts the arts that are related to the Arab World so we're part of those. Sometimes we think about our Arab part as just the language, we speak the Arab language, but we're Africans.

JF: A question in a similar vein then, if someone or if I came up to you and I 00:34:00said I know nothing about Islam, what would you want me to know about Islam?

LI: I'll tell you first thing it's, I'll simply try to define it, the name itself. Like if I'm talking about Christianity; so let's say it's coming, its, the root word is "Christ," Jesus Christ form those followers of Jesus Christ, I might say that. But if you're asking me about Islam, I'll tell you the word itself, it has only two parts: total submission to one and only God so it's the oneness of the God, that's the main thing. And then the other thing is peace. So the root word is "Salam", because you have some ground in Arabic, "Salam" means peace. And Islam is, the root word for it, comes from there. And the other thing in Islam is total submission. So it's a religion that's peaceful and the core of 00:35:00it is total submission to one entity that has the power over everything, and it's one, that's the main thing that Muslims would believe in, that Allah is one; that's the starting point. Everything after that is just we all have differences in looking at it but the first thing is that it's very peaceful. It's a religion that encourages you actually to get into relationships with other people. There is a verse in the Qur'an that says that, "Allah has created us," we believe that he is the one who created us. One of the reasons was one of the functions for us on this earth, is to get to know each other, other peoples and to interact with them and to know all of us at the end of the day, that there's no one nation or one ethnicity that's better than the other. According 00:36:00to him, the best of you is whoever fears God more and glorifies him more. So, it's very inherent in the whole belief that we are all equal; if you don't believe in that then you are not truly a Muslim, if you have any doubt that there is one ethnicity that is better than the others, then you are not a true believer. So, these are all things that are not highlighted when there is talk about Islam, sadly for what's going on. But these are the core values of Islam as a religion. So it encourages you to know the other, to live peacefully with the other, the peaceful coexistence between all other religions. We can just live; we portray, we give ourselves as Muslims but we can live with other 00:37:00religions; we can show what we believe in. Those who like it, and the only reason why they would want to join is if they are impressed with our attitudes, not with anything else. If they are impressed and they want to join, then welcome. If not, welcome too. So, these are the basic things about Islam. We have nothing to do with hate, with rejection of other faiths, with thinking that as ethnicity we are better, and actually there is at the Center, if you visit the Center, you'll find we have many posters and we have many lectures designed to show the similarities between the basic fundamentals of Islam itself and the 00:38:00US Constitution, which is very fascinating to see that there is a document that was prepared by people and after many years of foldings. It's like the ultimate thing of what they came out with, and it resembles a lot of the core values that we have in justice, in no one is above the law, in many of the things that are very core and very fundamental in our belief.

JF [asks Hannah "One more question? Okay"]

JF: [asks Lubna]: So this is our last question before we wrap up. If you had to describe your identity, who is Lubna Ibrahim?

LI: [laughs]

JF: You can take time to think.

Hannah Bennett [comments]: That's quite a question there.

LI: [laughs and repeats the question to herself] The first thing I'd usually 00:39:00like to identify myself with is my religion. So, I'd start by being a Muslim because that's part of my identity and it's obvious, ya know? You'll always see me wearing the scarf which means I'm proud of this identity, and it's the first thing that always shows when I'm speaking with, and especially here in the US it's so obvious. So, identifying the first thing with being, my whole being, is being a Muslim Alhamdulillah. The second thing is being a Sudanese African American. So, if you say African American, you're missing that Sudanese part, so 00:40:00it's just because it's so different. We have so much traits as Sudanese people, that are just very true to us as a people; doesn't mean that we're better than any others but we're very unique, on our own, not better but just different, we're different. That's the way I identify. And the American part of my identity is something I'm proud of and something that I'd always cherish and I'm happy this is something that I was able to accomplish during my life.

JF: That's perfect, thank you so much.

LI: You're welcome.

HB: It's fantastic.